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Author Topic: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks  (Read 10956 times)

andreas

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<<<Great. What you just wrote is why you are Tony Warren, theologian and Web Master extraordinaire, and he's Fred. Because good theologians study the bible, they don't parrot others just for the sake of consensus.>>>

BY the grace of God!

andreas.
kai ean diabainhs dió udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Tony Warren

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>>>
Is there actually a 'grave" for Gog?  Who are the passengers?

Honestly I am not able to understand it if I tried to apply to the time of Second Coming? Or Did I missed something?

Peace,
Erik
<<<



I have never studied that passage thoroughly enough to give you an "sound" answer. Just haven't gotten around to it with so much else to do. Sorry.


"nosce te ipsum"
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Reformed Baptist

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I can tell you right now that Toiny is going to tell you this has already been fulfilled, because he's said it before. But if I were you, I would look to some of the great Bible commentaries. They all pretty much say this has not been fulfilled yet. For example, the great Matthew Henry commentary says,

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary




There are lots of commentaries, and not all of them biblical.

  http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/calvinsinterp.html

Calvin's Commentary on Isaiah 2:1-4


Reformer

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I can tell you right now that Toiny is going to tell you this has already been fulfilled, because he's said it before. But if I were you, I would look to some of the great Bible commentaries. They all pretty much say this has not been fulfilled yet. For example, the great Matthew Henry commentary says,

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary




There are lots of commentaries, and not all of them biblical.

  http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/calvinsinterp.html

Calvin's Commentary on Isaiah 2:1-4




Looks to me like Calvin understood a lot more about prophecy than sir Matthew Henry. But that's just me ;)

Melanie

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Re: Beat Their Swords Into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2015, 04:03:52 AM »
 :nicethread: If only to learn what a plowshare and pruninghook was :)

Followup question. What does the verses following mean when it talks about everyone sitting under a tree.

"But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. Mica 4:4"

I assume it's spiritual rather than literal. Anyone know the meaning?


Simon

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Re: Beat Their Swords Into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2015, 06:34:44 AM »
:nicethread: If only to learn what a plowshare and pruninghook was :)

Come on, you didn't know what a plowshare was? What's the world coming to ;)


Melanie

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Re: Beat Their Swords Into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2015, 07:28:02 AM »
Come on, you didn't know what a plowshare was? What's the world coming to

Well, I did think it had to do with farming stocks  :P

Tony Warren

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Re: Beat Their Swords Into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2015, 04:28:54 PM »
>>>
Followup question. What does the verses following mean when it talks about everyone sitting under a tree.

"But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. Mica 4:4"

I assume it's spiritual rather than literal.
<<<

Indeed!

Micah 4:4
  • "And they shall sit every one under his vine, and under his fig-tree; and there shall be none to make them afraid: for the mouth of Jehovah of hosts hath spoken it."

The vine and Fig tree are used to illustrate the carefree, peaceful and prosperous nature of what is in view. That's why God also uses that figure to signify Israel. It's symbolism to signify they are without any cares in this Kingdom being prophesied. They sit in peace, safety and prosperity. And of course this is spiritual peace, safety and prosperity, since God's servants are warred against physically, are killed physically and are poor physically. Note that it further states that there are, "none that shall make them afraid." That's the language of the fear of death (Hebrews 2:15) being conquered in Christ.

Revelation 2:10
  • "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Clearly God's servants are not at peace with the world, have no safety from being murdered or are rich in this world's idea of riches. Nevertheless, the prophesy of Peace, Safety and prosperity is absolutely true and trustworthy. This Old Testament prophesy was of the kingdom of God that was coming in the dispensation of the New Covenant era, where the fear of death is replaced by the love of God that prevails among the nations. This sitting under his vine and under his fig tree signifies this care-free, safe and secure existence in Christ.

1st Kings 4:25
  • "And Judah and Israel dwelt safely, every man under his vine and under his fig tree, from Dan even to Beersheba, all the days of Solomon."

Again the "dwelling safely under their vines and fig trees" to signify that they have no cares as far as the enemy goes, they are safe and secure. As in Mica, the The vine and fig tree are to signify there will be no need of a fortified shelter or covert, as they will be safe and carefree in the open. Micah says, the Lord Jehovah has spoken this, illustrating that it will surely come to pass. And indeed, it did in Christ Jesus.

Luke 1:67-74
  • "And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
  • Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
  • And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
  • As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
  • pThat we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
  • To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
  • The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
  • That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,"

As it was written from the mouth of Jehovah, And they shall sit every one under his vine, and under his fig-tree; and there shall be none to make them afraid, so it came to pass.
 

"nosce te ipsum"
Tony Warren

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
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Mila Ostrovsky

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2015, 06:52:08 PM »
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/micah-4-4.html

John Gill's Commentary on Micah 4:4

But they shall sit every man under his vine, and under his fig tree. A proverbial phrase, expressive of the greatest tranquillity, security, and enjoyment of property; see ( 1 Kings 4:25 ) ; when persons need not keep within their walled towns and cities, and lack themselves up in their houses, but may sit down in their gardens, fields, and vineyards, and enjoy the fruit thereof; as the Targum interprets it,

    ``under the fruit of his vine, and under, the fruit of his fig tree.''

It was usual for persons in the eastern countries to sit under vines and fig trees to read, meditate, pray, or converse together, where they grow very large, as were their vines; and even with us they are frequently raised and carried over supporters, so as to be sat under; and of fig trees, we frequently read in Jewish writings of their being very large, and of their going up to them, and praying on the top of them; and of sitting under them, and studying in the law there. So one of the Rabbins says F16, he went up into his mustard tree, as one goes up to the top of a fig tree; and it is said F17, he that prays on the top of an olive tree, or on the top of a fig tree must come down, and pray below; and again F18, R. Jacob and his companions were fasting, studying in the law, under a certain fig tree; and sometimes they speak of all these together, of sitting under olives, and under vines, and under fig trees, and studying in the words of the law F19; see ( John 1:48 ) . This is to be understood, as Aben Ezra and Kimchi explain it, of all men; not of the Israelites only, but of all nations, since there will be no more war any where; hence it follows: and none shall make [them] afraid;
the enemies of God's people will be no more, neither Turk nor pope, eastern or western antichrist, beast or, false prophet; wherefore, in those days of the Messiah, Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely, even all the spiritual Israel of God, Jews and Gentiles; there shall be none to hurt in the holy mountain of the Lord, or any violence and oppression, wasting and destruction, anywhere; see ( Jeremiah 23:5 ) ( Isaiah 11:9 ) ( 60:18 ) ; for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken [it];
who speaks nothing but truth, and who is able and faithful to perform what he has spoken; and therefore all this may be depended on.

Fred

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2015, 10:25:22 PM »

Another old dead thread brought back to life by Melanie the thread prolonger. Why, I do not know. There has got to be better things she can do with her life.

And Tony, the Vine and Fig tree represent Israel. Why you want to make it the Church is beyond me.  This replacement theology will be your downfall.

Mila Ostrovsky

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2015, 12:08:06 AM »

Another old dead thread brought back to life by Melanie the thread prolonger.

 :Fighting: Fred, do you ever join a thread to present scripture, or only to antagonize? I for one enjoy these threads.
That is to say, until you join them to get into personalities.  :rulz:

Erik Diamond

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2015, 12:24:56 AM »
Quote
There has got to be better things she can do with her life.

Fred,

Melanie is a valuable member who can do whatever she wants on this forum. There is nothing wrong with bringing back old subjects to give members, new or old, the opportunities to discuss some more if they like.  Even Tony Warren did not have a problem with it today.  You, however, are the one with attitude problem. Many of us know how you are and your inability to contribute productive discussion based on Scriptural truth. Like I asked you before, why are you still here if you do not like what you see?

Anyway, people, if you want to learn more about what is the spiritual meaning of swords, plowshares, spears and pruning hooks can read Tony Warren's excellent study here:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/they_shall_beat_their_swords_into_plowshares.shtml 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Warren

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2015, 02:42:59 AM »
>>>
Another old dead thread brought back to life by Melanie the thread prolonger.
<<<

Alas, if only other "professed Christians" had half the desire and intention of bringing life to the dead, the church wouldn't be in the shape that it is in now. Unfortunately, they've left their first love and have no desire to bear fruit by evangelizing. Would we had more active Christians like Melanie.

Revelation 2:5
  • "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."


Quote
>>>
Why, I do not know.
<<<

The Spirit of Christ? The Spirit of Grace? The Spirit of Life? The Spirit of Benevolent love/Agape? The Spirit of Truth? The Spirit of Prophesy? Take your pick.

Revelation 19:10
  • "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Consider what Spirit you have, rather than worry about hers.


Quote
>>>
There has got to be better things she can do with her life.
<<<

She could live to condemn, harass, ridicule and annoy, but then what would you have to do? :)


Quote
>>>
And Tony, the Vine and Fig tree represent Israel.
<<<

Which Israel? Which people? Which Kingdom? Which Israel is Israel according to God? Which one bears fruit and which one has an axe laid to it? Shouldn't God decide, rather than men? All we need to do is ask ourselves, which Vine a Tree bears fruit? That would be God's Vine and Fig Tree. Not according to tradition, but God's Word.

Romans 9:6-8
  • "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
  • Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
  • That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Fred, if the Vine and Fig tree represent Israel, how can God say He gives the Vineyard to another because of the sin of national Israel? These are questions which you continually fail to address. And of course, we know why.


Quote
>>>
Why you want to make it the Church is beyond me.
<<<

The only standing fruitful Vine and Fig free is the church, the only visible Kingdom of heaven on earth today. It's not national Israel, as they are no longer the representation of the Kingdom of God on earth. You'd do well to actually start reading the holy Bible, rather than parroting Judaic/Premillennial tradition.

Matthew 21:38-41
  • "But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
  • And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
  • When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
  • They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons."

God lets His vineyard to other husbandmen. So How is it National Israel. That theory makes no sense when you actually read scripture.

Matthew 21:42-43
  • "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
  • Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

How can God say the Kingdom is taken from national Israel and given to a nation that brings forth fruit? Can National Israel the Vine be given away? Can National Israel the Fig Tree be given away to another nation to bring forth fruit? You sir Err, not knowing the Scriptures. Or, not wanting to know them.

Luke 3:8-9
  • "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
  • And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

Those are God's words, as opposed to Premillennial and Dispensational propaganda. Can the Axe be laid to the Fig Tree that wasn't bearing fruit, and you continue to parrot that even though It didn't bear fruit, it's still not cut down? Does that make sense when compared with God's Word?

Matthew 21:19
  • "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away."

Which Fig Tree is Christ declaring that no fruit will ever grow upon it, if National Israel is the Fig Tree? Is it the Israel of God, or the Israel according to the flesh, which you call National Israel?


Quote
>>>
This replacement theology will be your downfall.
<<<

The Lord Judge. I'm comfortable with His judgments. Replacement Theology is your characterization. God's Word is this:

Matthew 21:43-44
  • "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
  • And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."

The stone that "National Israel" rejected, has become the head of the Corner of the Israel of God. Selah!



"nosce te ipsum"
Tony Warren

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
The Doctrines of Grace!

David Knoles

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2015, 09:25:30 AM »
This is a declaration of the glory of the nation of Israel that returns to the Lord in the later days under rule of their Messiah. Fred is right in that you can't take this verse and  give it to the church. Here's what Darby said of this passage..

"Israel should dwell in perfect peace, consequent on God's rebuking the strong nations and judging among the peoples (Micah 4:3-4); and Jehovah is exalted amongst them. Each nation, say they, will boast of its God: but Jehovah is our God for ever and ever. Jehovah is the glory of His people. In that day Jehovah will accept the remnant of His people; He will assemble the poor, feeble, halting Jacob, and reunite that which He had scattered and afflicted. It should be the remnant of His desire; that which He had cast off should be a strong nation. Jehovah Himself would reign over them in Zion for ever".

There's the biblical overview of this passage. Israel will be restored.

Erik Diamond

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2015, 01:21:27 PM »
Quote from: 'david knoles"
Israel will be restored.

Yes, you are right, Israel will be restored... IN CHURCH! Not national Israel.

What you fail to understand is God did not say that national Israel must be fully restored which is a well-oiled myth.  God is talking about the remnant of Jews, being filled with Holy Spirit, bringing more riches to the NEw Testament Church. Therefore, the Church becomes Israel of New Testament.  That is why the Gentiles should NOT boast against them as if they are better

Colossians 1:27
"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

The gospel of salvation is called riches. God is here revealing His merciful grace in providing riches in the conversion of the Gentile world, and also making provision for a remnant in the fullness of natural Jews, converted, all of one body, "as per the context of Romans 11." How much more rich the Church will be if the remnant Jews also be filled with the Spirit, and as lost sheep come home? And how this might occur is explained in the context of the chapter in verses 1-5.

Romans 11:1-5
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

So then, the objection is answered. God had kept His promise to the people of Israel, because Paul confesses that he is an Israelite, and he has been delivered. God never promised to deliver every single individual in nation of Israel! Selah! God has chosen a remnant of Jews, "according to the election of Grace." This is how the fullness of Jews will come in, and this is how all Israel shall be saved. By a remnant coming in, along with the elect Gentiles. Thus God's Word of promise to Israel is not voided, it is fulfilled as God always defined it, not how man presumed it.

Romans 11:11
"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."

You just got Israel confused with national Israel instead of the Church where the spiritual riches really are.

Erik




"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

 


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