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Author Topic: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin  (Read 2404 times)

shuberts

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Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« on: August 25, 2005, 01:08:46 PM »
Okay, so which one is it?  I think that most people will go with option 4.

What do you think?  And, if you're interested in telling us, Why?
oi de eipon pisteuson epi ton kurion ihsoun criston kai swyhsh su kai o oikov sou

John B.

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2005, 11:39:17 AM »
It is a fools choice. There is not a correct response in the list.

John B.

shuberts

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2005, 01:49:26 PM »
It is a fools choice. There is not a correct response in the list.

John B.

Interesting.  Then are you not the one who most recently responded?

I would say that the last option is the Westminster Confession's view.  Wouldn't you?
oi de eipon pisteuson epi ton kurion ihsoun criston kai swyhsh su kai o oikov sou

John B.

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2005, 04:37:55 PM »
Shuberts,

No one here cares about the Westminster view. We (I) care about the Biblical view, and none of the choices you offered is the Biblical view.

shuberts

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2005, 11:06:05 AM »
Shuberts,

No one here cares about the Westminster view. We (I) care about the Biblical view, and none of the choices you offered is the Biblical view.

Boy, I wish that the "Westminster divines" were still around.  They would whack you in the head and call you an Arminian.  According to them, their view is the Biblical view.  And it happens to be the corner that most ultrasovereigntists end up backing into when pressed to examine their views.
oi de eipon pisteuson epi ton kurion ihsoun criston kai swyhsh su kai o oikov sou

John B.

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2005, 11:56:06 AM »
Shuberts,

1st, I don't care about the Westminster divines, or about them wacking me on the head. I don't agree with a lot of their doctrine and theology. I think for myself and I let the Bible determine my doctrine and theology, not a bunch of dead men's writings.

2nd, in my view the correct Biblical view is that God soveriegnly acts in the lives of some people to bring them to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. These are the ones that He elected before the foundation of the world. Then, there are those theat God does not sovereignly act in their lives. He leaves them to their own sin, and the wages for those sins is death.

Could God had soveriegnly chose to redeem all people? Yes. Could he had soveriegnly chose to redeem no one? Yes. Why did he soveriegnly choose to save some and leave others in their sins? The Biblical answer is:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Ephesians 1:3-5)

God predestines us according to what pleases Him - not us. And since we do not know the mind of God, we can never know why he chose some to be without blame and left others to die in their sins.

That my friend is the Biblical view. Are there a lot of unanswered questions? Yes, of course there are. Will we ever get an answer to them? Don't know. But where the Bible is silent, we also need to be, and we should not fill in those silent areas with the imaginations of our own heart which is "deceitful above all things."

If my above statements make me an "ultrasovereigntist", according to your definition, then so be it. But I will not be "cornered" into anyplace by what a bunch of dead "divines" wrote several hundred years ago. I will only be "cornered" by what the Bible teaches, and I will be blessed by it.

I hope that helps.

In His Service,

John B.

shuberts

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2005, 03:13:05 PM »
Quote from: John B.
1st, I don't care about the Westminster divines, or about them wacking me on the head. I don't agree with a lot of their doctrine and theology. I think for myself and I let the Bible determine my doctrine and theology, not a bunch of dead men's writings.

Well, we are at least in agreement on that.

Quote
2nd, in my view the correct Biblical view is that God soveriegnly acts in the lives of some people to bring them to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. These are the ones that He elected before the foundation of the world. Then, there are those theat God does not sovereignly act in their lives. He leaves them to their own sin, and the wages for those sins is death.

Hmmm.  Did you ever stop to ask yourself how those "others" came to be condemned in the first place?

Quote
God predestines us according to what pleases Him - not us. And since we do not know the mind of God, we can never know why he chose some to be without blame and left others to die in their sins.

Hmmm.  The Bible says that we have "the mind of Christ."  And, the Bible also clearly tells us why some are condemned and others are not.  John 3:18 is the text you want.
oi de eipon pisteuson epi ton kurion ihsoun criston kai swyhsh su kai o oikov sou

John B.

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2005, 03:41:15 PM »
Shuberts,

You are playing word games: "Hmmm.  The Bible says that we have "the mind of Christ."" You know full well what I am talking about. God has an infinite mind. His ways are above ours.

Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD."

Job: 38:4-33
4: Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5: Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6: Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7: When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8: Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9: When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10: And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11: And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12: Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13: That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14: It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15: And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16: Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17: Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18: Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19: Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20: That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21: Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22: Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23: Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24: By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25: Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26: To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27: To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28: Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29: Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30: The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31: Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32: Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33: Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?


Those others who "came to be condemned" are condemned because of their own sin. All are like sheep and gone astray. There is none righteous. No, not one. There is none that seeketh after God. They are condemned already because they have not believe on the Lord, Jesus Christ.

In His Service,

John B.

shuberts

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2005, 05:43:08 PM »
Quote from: John B.
John,
You are playing word games: "Hmmm.  The Bible says that we have "the mind of Christ."" You know full well what I am talking about. God has an infinite mind. His ways are above ours.

Indeed, I am not playing word games.  The very point of Paul's saying that we "have the mind of Christ" is to point out that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, which is the distinction between the Christian and the unregenerate man:

"I Corinthians 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

This is exactly his point:  That we are able to understand the mysteries of God (I Corinthians 2:11-16).  Further, you are using words carelessly.  I do not think that you even know what you are saying when you claim that "God has an infinite mind".  God has a definite mind, which has certain characteristics and does not have certain other characteristics.

Quote
Those others who "came to be condemned" are condemned because of their own sin. All are like sheep and gone astray. There is none righteous. No, not one. There is none that seeketh after God. They are condemned already because they have not believe on the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Thank you.  And now, for the next question:  How is it that these condemned sinners came to sin in the first place?   I eagerly await your answer to this question.

(In addition, the idea that "they are condemned because the have not believed on the Lord, Jesus Christ," while true, is quite opposed to your philosophy.  In your philosophy, they are condemned simply because God chose to condemn them, and they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ because God has not made them able to believe.  So, in your version of the Bible, John 3:18b would say, "He that is not elect cannot believe in the only begotten Son of God, because God has not put faith in his heart."  Your philosophy completely reverses the cause-effect relationship which Scripture clearly and repeatedly presents us.)
oi de eipon pisteuson epi ton kurion ihsoun criston kai swyhsh su kai o oikov sou

John B.

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2005, 11:08:04 PM »
Shuberts,

You are so locked into proving something that I am not that you have missed the entire point of my last post. It is like debating a brick wall. Good luck in you persuits.

In His Service,

John B.

shuberts

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2005, 11:15:19 PM »
You are so locked into proving something that I am not that you have missed the entire point of my last post. It is like debating a brick wall. Good luck in you persuits.

Oops!  Lost another one!

I sure wish people would answer simple questions.

Unfortunately, that last question is a pretty hard hurdle for the dedicated predestinationist.  Most predestinationists will see that they must ultimately allow that God is responsible for human sin, or accept that this entire theology is seriously broken.  Not surprised that not many will answer the question, though.

Best wishes, John!  Hope you keep that last question in mind!
oi de eipon pisteuson epi ton kurion ihsoun criston kai swyhsh su kai o oikov sou

Melanie

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2017, 05:11:57 PM »
Quote
Okay, so which one is it?  I think that most people will go with option 4.

What do you think?  And, if you're interested in telling us, Why?

It's none of them. I agree with John B. in the first response, that "it's a fool's choice."

The correct answer (which is not listed) is that God created Adam sinless, but being omniscient He also foreknew that Adam would transgress and sin bringing condemnation upon himself and his progeny. Therefore, God desiring to have a people for himself, before the foundation of the world He also provided grace for those whom "He chose" to have mercy upon.

Johnny

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2017, 12:55:13 AM »

Hmmmmmmm. I would like to hear why each of the listed answers are wrong.  :anyone:

Stan Pat

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 04:57:06 AM »
 :ditto:

Stan Pat

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Re: Poll: Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Sin
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 04:59:09 AM »
Quote
Okay, so which one is it?  I think that most people will go with option 4.

What do you think?  And, if you're interested in telling us, Why?

It's none of them. I agree with John B. in the first response, that "it's a fool's choice."

The correct answer (which is not listed) is that God created Adam sinless, but being omniscient He also foreknew that Adam would transgress and sin bringing condemnation upon himself and his progeny. Therefore, God desiring to have a people for himself, before the foundation of the world He also provided grace for those whom "He chose" to have mercy upon.

Isn't that the same as number 4?

 


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