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Author Topic: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains  (Read 28913 times)

Chris

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2003, 07:37:13 PM »

re4med,

Before I go into what I want to say,  I would like to state for the record that I believe that all believers should flee the church because I believe that we are in the GT period, where Matt.24:16-17 applies.

Brother Re4med,
   I think you are new here, but before you associate yourself with this fellow, you should know that the doctrines he preaches are heretical. Not calling him that, I'm talking about his doctrines. Among them, he teaches that none of us should go to any Church anymore, whether it's a good Church or a bad Church.

I'm sure you've heard of many people with this type gospel, but he takes it one step further and preaches the heresy that since we are in the great tribulation, there is no Salvation available to anyone now, and so we shouldn't preach to anyone about getting saved.

 1 Cor. 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

 So just as a warning from a fellow reformed christian, do not be deceived by Greeks bearing gifts, if you know what I mean. The doctrines tell a story of bad theology to woo good people.

 Sola Gratia
  Chris

judykanova

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2003, 07:44:37 PM »
Tony S.

It was hasty of me to say I would not respond to any more of your posts, as there will be occasions (like now), that I want to comment on something you've said.  I will make every effort to keep this objective, and trust you to do the same.

Referring to the 7 churches in Revelations 1~3, you said:
Quote
In those churches we see every type of wrong practice and doctrine and not one time that I am aware of are we told that they were to leave those churchs.

I just want to make a couple of comments for your consideration....

Firstly, I think a distinction needs to be made between God addressing a church as a whole,  versus a specific individual.  All the letters to the 7 churches are addressed to the church as a whole.

Secondly, among the 5 churches that God gave warnings to, of what benefit/purpose would it serve for an unfaithful member to leave, when he/she is part of the problem?

For example,  take the reference you made to Rev 2:3-5:

Revelation 2:3-5  And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

These verses (and others like them) are not about a faithful member contemplating whether or not to leave their local church.  I believe the question at hand (re4med please correct me if I'm wrong) pertains to someone who wants to be faithful in the manner in which they worship God.  

So , for the two reasons given,  I don't  think these Scriptures regarding the 7 churches speak to this specific issue.

judy

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Tony Silva

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2003, 12:26:01 AM »
>>So just as a warning from a fellow reformed christian, do not be deceived by Greeks bearing gifts, if you know what I mean. The doctrines tell a story of bad theology to woo good people.>>

Chris,

Where are your Scriptures refuting my post to re4med? In fact where are you Scriptures refuting anything I have posted. You don't have any that's where they are, all you have is your personal opinion,  even the unregenerate has that.

Proverbs 10:31  The mouth of the just bringeth forth wisdom: but the froward tongue shall be cut out.

Tony S    

Chris

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2003, 01:26:23 AM »
Chris,

Where are your Scriptures refuting my post to re4med?

 I wasn't refuting your post, I was talking to brother re4med about being aware of false doctrines of those who preach we shouldn't be preaching salvation in the great tribulation, and that all Christians should leave all the Churches now. I think it's best he should be informed of this type theology in this theology forum, don't you? It's perfectly acceptable. If I said anything untrue, I'm sure I'll be corrected. I have nothing to hide.


Tony Silva

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2003, 02:17:35 AM »
>>Tony S.

It was hasty of me to say I would not respond to any more of your posts, as there will be occasions (like now), that I want to comment on something you've said.  I will make every effort to keep this objective, and trust you to do the same.<<


Judy,

As I have said in previous posts, answering someones message is strictly up to the individual to do so or not, so you need not worry about the past, as far as I'm concerned these posts could be anonymous and they could still be used to edify so long as we keep the focus on the Scriptures.

>>I just want to make a couple of comments for your consideration....

Firstly, I think a distinction needs to be made between God addressing a church as a whole,  versus a specific individual.  All the letters to the 7 churches are addressed to the church as a whole.<<


I'm sorry but I disagree, because most if not all the Epistles are addressed to the churches, so if we take your point of view we would have to make a distinction between those epistles and the verses addressing individual believers, there is no distinction.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Galatians 1:1-2  Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

1 Thessalonians 1:1  Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Etc.... The churches were made up of individuals, therefore these letters are addressed directly to every individual in the church and also to every individual believer ho has lived since then.

>>Secondly, among the 5 churches that God gave warnings to, of what benefit/purpose would it serve for an unfaithful member to leave, when he/she is part of the problem?
For example,  take the reference you made to Rev 2:3-5:

Revelation 2:3-5  And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.<<


First, we are not addressing reasons for the unfaithful to leave a church, the subject is the reasons for faithful Christians to leave a church.
Second, these verses are addressed also to the believers within these churches and as to why they are allowing these abominations to continue in these churches. For example:

Revelation 2:14-16  But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:20  Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

So your contention that these things are addressed to the unfaithful, therefore of what benifit/purpose would it serve for an unfaithful member to leave, when he/she is part of the problem?, has no impact on this discussion. Although even using human logic, there would be some benifit if the unfaithful left voluntarily, because that would save the believers within the congregation the dreadful task of excommunicating them, thereby bringing the church closer to God's precepts.

>>These verses (and others like them) are not about a faithful member contemplating whether or not to leave their local church.  I believe the question at hand (re4med please correct me if I'm wrong) pertains to someone who wants to be faithful in the manner in which they worship God. <<

These verses and others like them are principals of how or how not people are to conduct themselves in the church, so they are very pertinent to the topic at hand.
Moreover it seems to me that every time you refute my posts more times than not you say that the verses I use do not apply, but look at all the other posts and the verses used in those to support their views, the fact is there are few verses if any dealing directly with the situation of leaving a church for unfaithfulness or any other reason for that matter. So we have to use the verses that apply to the principals of wheter a Christian should tolerate unfaithfulness in the church and whether they should leave it or work to get rid of it.

I hope Tony Warren doesn't mind if I use an example out of one of his posts, this is only for the purpose of showing Judy that we must use verses that relate to the principal, because it seems like she always tries to hold me to using only verses with the exact words of the subject matter in them.

>>Quote:   
>>>
However, under what circumstances may a person leave a local church fellowship?
<<<    
   

That's a good question, and a complicated one that I don't think has any "cookie cutter" or "pat" answer. I'd also be interested to hear what others think scripture teaches. The only guidelines which I believe we can use for leaving a Church are those spelled out on the pages of scripture. And I believe it is done by God telling Christians can, and cannot be a part of.<<   

I think my use of the examples of letters to the churches of Asia Minor fit well within the guidelines given by Tony Warren of God telling Christians what they can and cannot be part of.

1 Corinthians 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Tony S

judykanova

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2003, 12:40:02 PM »
Quote from Tony S.:
Quote
First, we are not addressing reasons for the unfaithful to leave a church, the subject is the reasons for faithful Christians to leave a church.


That's my point exactly, and one of the reasons why these passages prove nothing in terms of whether or not a faithful member should leave an unfaithful church.

Quote
Second, these verses are addressed also to the believers within these churches and as to why they are allowing these abominations to continue in these churches. For example:

Revelation 2:14-16  But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

In this passage, consider the intent of God's warning.  It's there in the last verse you gave -- " Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."  

You see, these warnings to the church pertain to  the issue of their need for repentence.  

There is also a difference between, as you say' "believers" (Satan believes and trembles), and a true believer who wants to be faithful in his worship of God.

James 2:19-20

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


So, to go so far as to imply (which you are doing)  that these Scriptures prove we are not to leave a local church, (when they prove nothing of the sort), is presumptuous to say the least.

I've made the points I wanted to make, which are there for your and others consideration.  I see no value in my debating this with you further.

judy

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Pearson

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2003, 04:10:48 PM »
 I agree Judy. God is giving warning the Church universal  against unfaithfulness and the results of this. The number seven is used to show the complete Church. It is addressing all of us and warning us of the dangers of unfaithfulness. In no way is this addressing the question of whether christians should remain in the roman catholic church or any other fallen Church.

 2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

By the way. On a related issue, all the reformers were not excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, many "more" came out from among them voluntarily. So let's put that baby to rest also.


Tony Silva

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2003, 04:58:15 PM »
>>I've made the points I wanted to make, which are there for your and others consideration.  I see no value in my debating this with you further.<<

Judy,

I guess I get the last word by default.

What I wish you would have addressed were:

1. Most if not all the Epistles are addressed to the churches, so if we take your point of view we would have to make a distinction between those epistles and the verses addressing individual believers, there is no distinction.   

2. My quote of Tony Warren's post and how it relates to using those verses found in Rev.2 which are addressed to the churches as are the Epistles.

>>Revelation 2:14-16  But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.   
   

In this passage, consider the intent of God's warning.  It's there in the last verse you gave -- " Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."  

You see, these warnings to the church pertain to  the issue of their need for repentence.<<


This passage is addressed to a group other than the unfaithful that hold the doctrine of Balaam, because it says"   I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam,"  It is those that allow these people that hold this doctrine to remain in the church that must repent. And how can they repent if it is not them that hold this doctrine,  but are allowing them to remain? The answer is found in 1Corinth.5:

1 Corinthians 5:1  It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1 Corinthians 5:2  And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

1 Corinthians 5:4-5  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

But enough said, the point is when given a choice to leave an unfaithful church or to try and clean it up by working to get rid of the unfaithful in the churches of Asia Minor, which also applies to all the church in the NT era, I think the scales are tipped on the the side of repenting and getting rid of the cancer.

Tony S

John

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2003, 03:33:43 PM »
Tony S.,

Knowing that you hold to DOT, how is it that you have well made the point we (the believer) is not instructed from the verses quoted to flee the doctrines of Balaam, or flee the church wherein is fornication, or flee the doctrines of Jezebel?  Rather, the instruction from God is repent and remove wickedness from the churches.

Revelation 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rather than say, "flee the churches where the WCF is taught or divorce is permitted or women do not keep their godly place or various doctrines are askew" we should say more biblically: "Search yourself for error, and see what made you fall from truth, repent and be restored".  At the least, believers are to first try and reform errors in their church, not simply run away. Whether reform is possible remains under God's purview, but simply running away is not taught here.

We can all probably agree that a church in apostasy, judged unworthy and with its candlestick removed is no place for any believer.  But if only the faithful would work to correct the churches that remain reasonably true to the word of God rather than adhere to a doctrine that cries "run away from all churches". I say, do not forsake the assembling together. Rather, especially now during a time of great apostasy be diligent to keep your assembly faithful.

Your acceptance or rejection of the 'end of the church age' paradigm will determine your fight or flight response.

john
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Tony Silva

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2003, 07:48:21 PM »
>>Knowing that you hold to DOT, how is it that you have well made the point we (the believer) is not instructed from the verses quoted to flee the doctrines of Balaam, or flee the church wherein is fornication, or flee the doctrines of Jezebel?  Rather, the instruction from God is repent and remove wickedness from the churches.<<

Hello john,

The reason for my point that we are not to run is that the Bible taught this in the examples that aregiven to us in these apostate churches in Asia Minor and the church in Corinth. But when we come to the GT period we are commanded to flee.

Matthew 24:15-16  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

What is the difference between abomination in the churches during the church age and after the abomination of desolation takes his place in the holy place? One big difference is that in the GT period the Holy Spirit is taken out of the midst.

During the church age the Holy Spirit was restraining sin in the church, but when Satan is loosed the Holy Spirit is taken out of the midst to allow Satan to rule in the church and deceive.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 The reason given here for the removing of the restraint that God had on Satan during the NT era is that that Satan might be reveaked in his time. What is Satan's time? It is the GT period in which he is given power to  overcome the saints and sit (rule) in the temple of God.

Revelation 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The church age and the GT period are two totally different mandates in the operation of the local church.

Thank you john for your comments.

Tony S

sandy

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2003, 12:21:54 PM »
I, and it appears many other believers, have concluded that when Christ says: "flee to the mountains" this symbolically is saying we should flee to God.  In other words get on our knees, get in the Word, search, study, diligently seek.  But, I am wondering why this word "mountain(s)" is plural?  Why, if this is the proper conclusion does this not read "flee to the mountain"?  There are many places in Scripture where God speaks of His holy mountain, so why here does Christ say mountains?  What am I missing, and could this symbolism mean something we have yet to consider?

Just a few more of my rambling thoughts?  Any help???      

sandy

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2003, 04:14:14 PM »
I hope none of you will mind if I just sort of make statements and observations as thoughts occur to me on this topic through study and meditating on His Word.  

I'm confused, and I would really like to understand how all of Scripture fits together to form a complete picture of God's covenant of redemption.  

As any of you who have read some of my recent posts know, I believe the Bible teaches us we have been in the last days, or end times since the cross.  With that thought in mind, what would Christ mean when He tells us to flee to the mountains?  I'm just more or less thinking out loud here, and would really like some input from you.  

Could Christ be telling us to flee to the churches?  Now, before you all call for the panel wagon to have me put away, please consider what the Bible teaches us about the mountains.  Not just the Mountain, but mountains, as they relate to the people of God.  I've looked at a number of verses of Scripture, but I will only give a couple because I would really like to know what you all think of this idea, and what your studies of mountains leads you to.  

Revelation 17:9  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

I think all or at least most of us would agree that the woman is a symbol of the church.

Revelation 1:4a  John to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Seven symbolically represents all the churches throughout the ages.    

Matthew 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Would it be totally preposterous to think that Christ is telling us to flee to places of worship (churches) since the holy place in Jerusalem no longer exists?

I'll not make further statements until I get some feedback from some/one of you.  I'm just trying to understand, and I don't know exactly where this will lead me.  
 

stacia

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2003, 10:23:35 AM »
Quote:Matthew 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.
 Sandy,
I agree that the mountains represents churches and the most important is faithful churches in the above scripture.

sandy

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Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2003, 09:27:18 AM »
These are not meant to be dogmatic statements, and are only posted here for your consideration.

The abomination of desolation is established as being in the holy place, (that being the Temple in Jerusalem) at the moment of the death of Christ.  The curtain was rent from top to bottom signifying that the Temple was no longer the holy place, the holy of holies ceased to be in the literal Temple.  The old was abolished and the new ushered in.  The destruction of the Temple was the final fulfillment of the prophetic warning God had repeatedly issued throughout Scripture; “I will destroy your high places, make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation.”  The ultimate fulfillment of these prophetic warnings will come at the end of time, and the destruction of the corporate church.    

After the cross, the Church became the dwelling place of God.  The New Testament Church is now the holy place.  The Old Testament Temple, which had become a place of abomination was replaced by the New Testament Church, but it too would follow in the same way and become an abomination unto God.  This is what Christ warned us of when He tells us to “flee to the mountains” when we see the abomination standing in the holy place.  The destruction of literal Jerusalem, throwing down the buildings and the Temple spiritually symbolized what would finally happen to the New Testament Corporate Church.  The True Church, made up of believers would never fall, and would never become an abomination unto God.  The True Church is within the believer, and the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit of God.

Jesus speaking to His disciples of the literal Temple and buildings says, “See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”  His disciples ask,  “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”  As one can see this is a multi part question, and the answer Christ gives deals with all parts of the questions.  At the same time His answer becomes both literal, and symbolic, and deals with not only the near future for His disciples, but also the distant future, end times, and His Second Coming in Judgment and glory.  The Temple in Jerusalem had already become an abomination before its literal destruction.  This was apparent at the cross of Christ.  After Pentecost, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the church would be the only holy place, and it would be the place to flee to because although the literal Temple still stood (until AD 70) it was a place where abomination of desolation was standing.  

I believe that Christ is telling us that although there will be many churches that call themselves holy, just as the physical Temple was, many of them, and finally all of them, like the Temple, will become places where the abomination of desolation will be established.  But, the final falling away of all churches will not happen until the very end of the world.  Wherever we come together in the name of the Lord, when we see it has become a place of abomination we should flee to the mountains.  In other words find a church that is more faithful, and more committed to the whole truths of Scripture.  Will we find the perfect church?  According to Scripture there doesn’t seem to be any in existence.  From its earliest establishment, the church has had her problems.  And has been comprised of both wheat (believers) and tares (unbelievers).  But having some problems, and knowing Satan is on the throne are real extremes.  Because Satan is a master of deception it will be increasingly difficult to know when abomination of desolation has come into some churches.  Therefore I believe that the church (corporate) will consist of both believers and unbelievers throughout the ages, and to the end of time.  

I do not believe this mandate to “flee” is Christ telling us to abandon our churches.  In fact, I believe Christ is telling us just the opposite.  We know that the external corporate churches throughout the ages will be made up of both precious stones, and wood, hay and stubble.  We also know that separating of the wheat from the tares will not occur until the last day.  

How could I believe that “flee to the mountains” is symbolic language telling us to flee to more faithful places of worship, more faithful churches?  Notice I said “more faithful” and I did not say perfect churches.  Nowhere in Scripture are we told we have to understand every dot and tittle perfectly to be considered faithful.  And nowhere in Scripture do we read that physical churches will be made up of only believers.  We are also never told that we are to become judges of another man’s heart.  In the letters to the seven churches in Revelations, again and again we read that we are to strengthen what remains, and to persevere.  Even though these churches (symbolically representing all churches throughout the ages), were by far lacking in faithfulness, nowhere are we instructed to flee from them.  That is not to say that we should remain in churches where we clearly see that Satan is on the throne.  To do so would indeed be an abomination unto God.

The Bible tells us that we have been in the last days, or end times since the cross of Christ.  

1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Jude 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Numbers 24:14 And now, behold, I go unto my people: come therefore, and I will advertise thee what this people shall do to thy people in the latter days.
15 And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said:
16 He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:
17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

We also read that the house of the LORD will be established upon the mountains in the last days.

Micah 4:1  But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2  And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:2  And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3  And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4  And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Nahum 1:15  Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off.

Compare to this cross reference in the New Testament regarding the church.

Romans 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

We also read that great iniquity will be committed upon the mountains.  

Isaiah 65:7  Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.
8  Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
9  And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Finally we are shown that the woman (church) sits upon the seven mountains.

Revelation 17:6  And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7  And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Could it be that we have been wrong in our assessment of end things?  Have we been hearing the same rhetoric for so long that we have become less than thorough in our study of these things?  Isn’t it possible that the end times, or last days that Christ warns us of have been the whole New Testament era?  I know my thoughts can sometimes be confusing, but I am really searching for truth.  I will be the first to admit that there are many things I lack understanding of.  This is the reason I post here, hoping to get feed back from some of you who have been studying much longer than I.  Anyway, I would appreciate being shown through Scripture why my conclusions may be in error, and look forward to hearing from you, even you Tony Silva.                                                    
 

Tony Silva

  • Guest
Re: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2003, 07:23:28 PM »
>>We begin to tell people that if they remain in churches where Satan is clearly on the throne, then they are not truly saved.  Or we tell them that if a true believer remains in the church then the believer will come under eternal Judgment!  How arrogant this sounds to me. <<

I would rather be judged as arrogant and warn true believers that they are worshipping Satan than to sit idly by while Satan is being worshipped as God in the churches even for a minute.

Exodus 20:3-5  Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Moreover, God gives us assurances that we cannot remain in a situation like that, yet you say that this has gone on throughout the whole NT period? The worship of Satan is not without repercussions.

Revelation 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 13:16-17  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 14:9-10  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This is what the GT period is all about, the warning of the true believers against this deception of Satan being worshipped.

Matthew 24:21-22  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:23-25  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.

Here God is saying that these false Christs and false prophets shall deceive the very elect if possible? I guess that you are saying it is possible, since you say believers have been sitting in churches where Satan is ruling since the conception of the church.

Quote from Reply # 63 on July 12, 03
>> There will be believers sitting in churches where he is on the throne, this has happened in the past, it is happening now, and it will happen in the future right up to the end of time. <<


This goes against everything the Bible teaches, while I believe that for a very brief period at the start of the GT period the kings of the earth (the believers) will commit fornication with the harlot, because they "didn't know the time of their visitation" ( the start of the GT period), there is nothing in the Bible that teaches that the true believers would sit under the rulership of Satan during the NT period, while Satan is bound. As matter of fact the reason God gives for the binding of Satan is so that he could not go out and deceive the nations, till the "thousand years" were expired.

Revelation 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:7-8  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

If given a choice, I would believe God that Satan was not deceiving the believers in the church during the NT era, let alone ruling in it, that is until the thousand years were finished and he is loosed.  And although it might appear a very noble gesture for someone to encourage the believers to stay in a church situation even after Satan has begun to rule in the church and very unchristian to tell them to flee the church, the opposite is true.

Tony S   

 


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