[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?  (Read 46273 times)

iGreg

  • Guest
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2004, 03:39:06 AM »


Howdy Apostolic!

Well, I wanted you to know that I believe in Miracles.  Matter of fact, I firmly believe in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12 as well.  All of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are alive and well today for the Christian Church for those who believe.

God Bless You! :)
As it is written in I Cor. 13.8:
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

So tongues will cease at some point. If you believe it is a Godly practice now, then when will it cease? Rev. 22:18-19 shows that it has in fact ceased as Godly practice.

As it is written in II Corinthians 11:13-14:
"13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

If Satan comes looking like Christ, how do you know that a sign or a wonder is not from him?

See also Matthew 12:39:
"39 But he answered and said unto them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: "

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2085
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2004, 09:57:10 AM »
>>>
John 14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do;

Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Ac 6:8  And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Well, I wanted you to know that I believe in Miracles.  Matter of fact, I firmly believe in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12 as well.  All of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are alive and well today for the Christian Church for those who believe.

God Bless You! 
<<<


I'm sorry to say your reply is nonsense! From your many posts you have made it clear that you have absolutely no understanding of either the Word of God, Miracles, or the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The fact is, you could no more do a supernatural wonder today than you could cure aids with a touch of your hand, or drink radioactive waste and not be harmed, or walk on water or raise men from the dead, etc.. You obviously cannot do those things because you don't have that power, and neither does anyone else in this world today.

To feign that you "can do, or might, or that God left such power for Christians today," shows either inherent dishonesty or a fundamental lack of understanding of scripture. You decide which. You'd have a better chance at claiming that you can swim across the desert holding your breath.

The question is, who will listen to a "professing" Christian who is really a minister of the devil, or to the false prophet who feigns he can do great signs and miracles? Is it not those who are spiritually "inclined" to believe those vain proclamations wherein one claims to possess such supernatural powers? Those who from their heart lust after such power and acclaim? Nevertheless, the Lord knows those who are His, and it is only the vain who give ear to these egotistical postulations of supernatural power. The Lord knows the hearts of such people, which means that while man may be fooled by feigned sincerity, God is not mocked.

Proverbs 17:3-4
  • "The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts.
  • A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue."

To imply that you (or any professed christian today) can literally do the supernatural things as listed in Mark 16:17, or do greater supernatural miracles than Christ (John 14:12), or do great wonders and miracles among the people (Acts 6:8 ) as before the word of God was completed, is a "biblically" untenable presumption.

Psalms 92:5
  • "O LORD, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are very deep.
  • A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this."

A spiritually brutish (stupid or dense) man doesn't have "Spiritual" knowledge, and so he falls for this foolishness that is illustrated in false signs and wonders today. Signs and miracles that are claimed by false prophets. And it's because his heart is inclined to do so. A man who is of the Spirit of God "hears" God's Word, and ultimately comes to the Spiritual understanding or discerning of why there were miracles done. Thus by the foolishness of preaching (1st Corinthians 1:18-21) he not only understands they have ceased, but why they have ceased with the completion of God's Word. And he understands the error of adding to God's completed Word by these "alleged" further divine revelations by supernatural declarations.

Revelation 22:18
  • "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"

He who has no understanding or wisdom, cannot see these things explained to them. Because they are spiritually discerned.

Again, I'm fully aware that anyone can say anything and get away with it if they have an audience "inclined" to receive these false teachings. As also did the false miracle workers who wrought miracles before Moses and Pharaoh "mimicking" and "feigning" the power of God. So it is not a new phenomenon.

As for the gifts of the Holy Spirit, those who have these gifts do not speak as one without any "Spiritual" knowledge of the Word of God. They speak with the Spirit of truth, "which effectively uses their gift." Each in that Spirit was given his distinct gift or ability, as God has willed. Each having his own special gift to aid in the ministry of the word.

1st Corinthians 3:5-6
  • "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
  • I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase."
1st Corinthians 7:17
  • "But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches."

God has distributed to every one of us our gifts. And they're not supernatural. Those who are snared in gospels that have pleasure in the unrighteousness of false signs and wonders, are those under damnation of God, not those who come as His messengers. God's messengers do not lie, they do not come in all deceiveableness of unrighteousness, and they don't feign that they can do supernatural things, which they very "obviously" cannot do. It's one thing to believe in miracles, but it's quite another to engage in the charades of claiming to have done these miracles. This is the spirit of Antichrist. Those who think that they can command the Spirit of God in healing sick patients with cancer, or do miraculous signs and wonders, are called "false prophets," not true believers. And it is no mystery that they would be so rampant in the Church today.

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12
  • "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
  • And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
  • And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
  • That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

It is no mystery that there are those who see great signs and wonders, and claim "here is Christ," and that mock the Sp[irit. But they deceive not only the simple minded, they are also themselves deceived. Christ already warned us of these, and declared their deception would be clever and very convincing. But the elect will see through them.

Matthew 24:23-25
  • "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
  • For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
  • Behold, I have told you before."

Which is no guarantee He'll tell us again! We have to listen! So, you saying that you believe in these signs and wonders is not a novelty, because those who do the same are legion and growing all the time. But they are deceived. Because this phenomenon is of the working of Satan, the great magician and deceiver. He is the Father of lies. The question is, are we going to be deceived by these teachers, or are we going to take heed, be aware, and "be not deceived," as Christ instructed?

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

MightyMike

  • Guest
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2004, 10:16:57 AM »
Howdy Tony!

I am on my way to Church this morning.  When I return, I will respond to your post.

God Bless You!

MightyMike

  • Guest
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2004, 04:36:46 PM »
Quote
MightyMike-->Well, I wanted you to know that I believe in Miracles.  Matter of fact, I firmly believe in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12 as well.  All of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are alive and well today for the Christian Church for those who believe.

Quote
Tony says-->I'm sorry to say your reply is nonsense! From your many posts you have made it clear that you have absolutely no understanding of either the Word of God, Miracles, or the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The fact is, you could no more do a supernatural wonder today than you could cure aids with a touch of your hand, or drink radioactive waste and not be harmed, or walk on water or raise men from the dead, etc.. You obviously cannot do those things because you don't have that power, and neither does anyone else in this world today.

Howdy Tony!

You got all of this diatribe of yours out of my comments above?  All I said was I believe in Miracles and I also believe that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are still alive and well today for the Christian Church for those who believe. 

Secondly, You don't know me and you do not have the foggiest idea what I can do through Christ.  My Bible teaches me that I can do ALL things through Christ Jesus who strengtheneth me, Philippians 4:13.  I believe that Scripture.

Philippians 4:13.  I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

I am not that all impressed with what you think I cannot do through Christ.  I am also very sorry to hear that you do not believe what I do in regards to Miracles and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.  These Gifts of God are very precious and are freely given and divided severally to every man as God chooses, 2 Corinthians 12:11

And, Quite frankly, Sir, Your attitude towards them stinks, with all due respect!  This is God's Holy Word and you appear, at least to me, to spit in God's face over these precious Gifts!  How dare you treat my Lord and Saviour this way.  I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  I pray that you are not either.

Romans 1:16.  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Quote
Mr Tony says -->To feign you do or might, or that God left such power for christians today, shows inherent dishonesty or a lack of understanding of scripture. You decide. You'd have a better chance at claiming that you can swim across the desert holding your breath. The question is, who will listen to the professed christian who ministers the lies of the devil, or to the false prophet who feigns he can miracles? Is it not those who are spiritually "inclined" to listen to these vain babblings and lies about supernatural healing? Indeed, the Lord knows those who are His, and the vain gives ear to these nonsensical declarations of power.

First of all, Mr. Tony, I never said I could perform a miracle.  God is the one who performs miracles.  My Bible teaches me that God never changes.  God performed miracles for the Children of Israel and He still performs them for the Christian Church today.  Who are you to say otherwise? 

I am not showing inherent dishonesty or a lack of understanding of Scripture when I firmly believe in Miracles and have seen them with my own eyes.  What a powerful witness to the World and those who do not believe!!  Wouldn't you agree, Sir?  You know what they say, Seeing is believing.  And, I just witnessed one this year with my stepson and I saw this miracle with my very own eyes.

A Second Miracle that has occurred in my life happened to me and with my hands.  When I was young, I studied piano and became a concert classical pianist.  Then I stopped playing in 1980 because of work and the fact that I was heavily involved with Service work.  I injured my hands and I could no longer play the piano. 

In 1995, My first wife passed away.  2 weeks later, I was praying and asking God what He wanted me to do and at that very moment, My hands get very hot and turned red.  15 minutes later, Mr. Tony, I sat down and played the old hymn "Sweet hour of prayer" on the piano as if I had not missed a lick of practice. 

BTW, Mr. Tony, I had not touched the piano in over 14 years.  I PRAISE GOD for this miracle my friend.  Think what you want.  But, I am a living, piano playing Witness, friend!  And, I played the piano this morning in Church.  We did our Easter contata this morning.

So, If you think, for a moment, with all of your finite wisdom that you have that God does not perform miracles because of Revelation 22:18-19 or 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, Think again friend.  In the last days, My Bible teaches me that God will pour our His Spirit on all flesh, Acts 2:17-18.

Acts 2:17-18

17.  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18.  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


What days do you think we are in now, Mr. Tony? 

God Bless You! :)

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2085
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2004, 12:32:02 PM »
>>>
Howdy Tony!

You got all of this diatribe of yours out of my comments above?
<<<

I got out of your comments only what you've been writing and implying. Somehow you've got the impression that God is working supernatural miracles through Christians today, and (I'm sorry to say) though this is a very popular false teaching, it is really a  "plague" on the Church today. There are no supernatural divine revelations by God today, because God finished "The Book" and cursed anyone who would add to it by such (alleged) divine revelation.

When one claims to have had God do a divine supernatural miracle through them, they have in fact added a new revelation from God, and are thus under the curse of the plagues written. Any new word of revelation from God today is an "additional" word from God apart from the Bible, and that is a violation of God's word. Anyone claiming to speak in the Spirit of God in unknown tongues has added to God's word by "alleging" falsely that God spoke to them. And anyone claiming to supernaturally heal is claiming that God brought a new revelation of salvation demonstrated in that token miracle. ie, any miracle is a new revelation direct from God!


Quote
>>>
You don't know me and you do not have the foggiest idea what I can do through Christ.
<<<

As I said before, I say again. I know you can't cure the disease of aids, I know you can't remove an inoperable cancer from anyone by laying on of hands, I know you can't drink radioactive waste and not be harmed, and I know that you can't walk on water or raise someone from the dead who's been in the grave so long he has decayed. Despite all the "rhetoric" from wanna-be Miracle workers, I do know that! And the reason I know that it is not because of knowing you, but because of knowing the Bible, and receiving God's word. You see, I don't have to know you to know the truth of scripture. My truth is not predicated upon knowing what you can do, but upon knowing what God says. Your belief that God is doing supernatural miracles through you doesn't change God's word on the subject one iota. God is immutable, therefore I know you cannot do these things. You, nor anyone else today.
 

Quote
>>>
 My Bible teaches me that I can do ALL things through Christ Jesus who strengtheneth me, Philippians 4:13.  I believe that Scripture.
<<<

So do I. So does Christ. But I've got news for you, my Bible also teaches me that God will give his angels charge over me, to keep me in all my ways, and they shall bear me up in their hands, lest I dash my foot against a stone (Psalms 91:11-12). But I can assure you, that doesn't mean that anyone can jump off a cliff because of this promise by God. My point being, you cannot take one verse out of context and build an erroneous conclusion from it. That's what you have done. Do you not know that the Devil also used the, "My Bible says" line, but Christ made it plain to him (and us) that there's more to understanding scripture than this "simplistic" literalism. Consider wisely:

Matthew 4:6-7
  • "And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
  • Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

In other words, the Devil tempts or tests Christ saying, "My Bible says.." You see what he is doing? Christ knows that the scripture quoted  is true, just not the way the Devil was attempting to use it. Christ is replying to him saying, "..that's not all the Bible says about what God' will and won't do!" Satan's simplistic uttering Bible verses was actually deceitful in that he dishonestly "ignored" the rest of the Bible in order to use this one scripture to back up his contention. ie, scripture, out of context, is pretext! So when you say, "My Bible says," make sure you actually know all your Bible says.


Quote
>>>
I am not that all impressed with what you think I cannot do through Christ.  I am also very sorry to hear that you do not believe what I do in regards to Miracles and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
<<<

Do you think I am trying to impress you? No, not at all. What I am doing is bearing "faithful" witness to God's word. You can receive it or not receive it, as God allows. the receiving of truth is in His hands, not mine. But impressing you is not what I seek to do. If I wanted to impress you (and others) I would tell you how well you know your doctrine, and how today's Church views signs and wonders are also God's view. I would tiptoe through any disagreements with smooth words laced liberally with "yes, that's one way to look at it," and end up saying "we all have our opinions so let's just love each other and accept the different view points as faithful Christians all."

No!  I'm not a man-pleaser so I'm not trying to impress you. Nor do I expect you or anyone else to speak well of me because of my witness to Christ's words concerning this unpopular truth. The idea that there are supernatural miracles being done today by people is the "majority" view, not the minority view. People hate when faithful Christians speak against this modern trend, so how am I trying to impress anyone? If anything, I'm opposing the popular view. Didn't the Apostle Paul, Peter and Stephen do the same?

Luke 6:22-23
  • "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
  • Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets."

Churches who tout miracles are the Churches with the doctrine of choice for the masses. You think that I care about impressing people? If I did, I would be touting this view. That is how I would have the most people impressed with me, and have them all speaking well of me. According to scripture:

Luke 6:26
  • "Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets."

My interest is in truth, not impressing you with my witness against this. I am fully aware God knows who are His, so it's not my job to convince anyone of truth. That is the real job of the Holy Spirit, not babbling languages. My job is merely to bear witness to the scriptures.


Quote
>>>
These Gifts of God are very precious and are freely given and divided severally to every man as God chooses, 2 Corinthians 12:11. 
<<<

That there are gifts of God divided severally to every man according as God wills, I do not deny. That there are supernatural abilities divided unto every man today, I do deny. The thing is, if the false prophet knew he was deceived, he wouldn't be teaching and believing the things that he does. In other words, people wouldn't be deceived if they knew truth.  But they don't know they are under delusion. The false teachers are generally unaware that their teachings are not of God, they are thinking that they do God service when in fact they are under God's wrath. And unless they change their ways, they shall discover too late that God is not mocked. Their deceit is not hidden from God, even though the devil has hidden it from them.  When they stand before God, their "so-called" good works of supernatural Miracles will be as useless to them as a bag full of wood in a fire.

Matthew 12:39
  • "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"

The signs are for the elect, and they see them as the representative tokens that they were.


Quote
>>>
First of all, Mr. Tony, I never said I could perform a miracle.  God is the one who performs miracles.
<<<

Yes, I know. The "Standard Retort" from people in these types of  gospels and from these teachers. But the scripture promises power over serpents and scorpions, drinking deadly things without harm, power to lay on hands and heal. If you're healing people, walking on water, speaking in tongues, drinking deadly poisons without being hurt or picking up serpents, you're receiving divine power and Revelation from God. Thus the Bible is not finished, and God is illustrating More/New divine Revelation through you. So the "false humility" of saying "it's God and not you doing this," is actually the outworking of pride. That's not true humility, that's closet piousness. True humility is in not looking for signs and wonders, true humility is in understanding the sign of Jonas was pointing to a Messiah who must be judged and by that heal our sin sickness. True humility is surrendering to God's word concerning things, rather than fighting God's word because we don't like that it forbids additions. True humility is looking at physical sicknesses and saying, "Thy will be done O' Lord, not mine." That's true humility. It's not in saying, I'm going to lay hands on my sick cousin and heal them through God. ..or I know if I drink any deadly poison, God will not let me die. That's not humility, that's tempting the Lord God in pride, arrogance, piousness, and vanity.


Quote
>>>
I am not showing inherent dishonesty or a lack of understanding of Scripture when I firmly believe in Miracles and have seen them with my own eyes.
<<<

With all due respect, I am confident that you've seen no supernatural Miracles with your own eyes. Nor has anyone else living today. You may have seen what you believed was a miracle, but you've seen no new supernatural acts from God. No seas parting, no dead raising up, no burning bush, no walking on water, no water to wine, no man given a new hand, just the easily feigned run-of-the-mill pseudo miracles of healing and babbling that today "PASSES" for Miracles.


Quote
>>>
 What a powerful witness to the World and those who do not believe!!  Wouldn't you agree, Sir?
<<<

No, I wouldn't agree! It's not a powerful witness to the world. That is the world's idea of a powerful witness. But God's idea of a powerful witness to the world is the gospel, brought to the world through the Holy Spirit, by evangelizing. Physical healings of old were merely a sign or token pointing to the "true" Spiritual healings that would come through the preaching of Christ. Now that is the "true" powerful witness to the World.

Romans 16:25-26
  • "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
  • But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

There is God's idea of a Powerful Witness to the world, and it is not egotistically proving Christ by feigning miracles, but by what is called "the foolishness of preaching" the gospel to the world in evangelizing.

John 17:9
  • "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

God is not interested in proving anything to the world, that's man's delusion. The miracles were proof to the Church that the promised Messiah and kingdom of God had indeed come, and they were made to illustrate the spiritual nature of this Kingdom. Something that, to this day, the Judaizers and their modern Christian Premillennial cousins just cannot seem to grasp. Did not Christ Himself say that if He cast out Demons by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom had come? That miracle was a picture illustrating how we are made a new creation, by His overcoming Satan for us. We are made citizens of the Kingdom thereby.

Regrettably, the answer to your question of "if you are showing a lack of understanding of Scripture," is yes. You show a great lack of understanding of the scriptures even at the basic level, while all the time attempting to instruct others on complicated issues. Physician, heal thyself, is my advice. First take the beam out of your own eye, then you can see clearly to remove things from other people's eyes.

As far as any deliberate dishonesty or deceit goes, that is between you and God. The Lord alone knows the heart, and who "truly" are His. I judge not and am comfortable with that.


Quote
>>>
.....In 1995, My first wife passed away.  2 weeks later, I was praying and asking God what He wanted me to do and at that very moment, My hands get very hot and turned red.  15 minutes later, Mr. Tony, I sat down and played the old hymn "Sweet hour of prayer" on the piano as if I had not missed a lick of practice. 
<<<

That's not a miracle! That's not supernatural. Christ never claimed helping anyone play a piano or any musical instrument was a miracle. His miracles were before "scripted" to illustrate certain aspects of the salvation program. All of His miracles, and the Apostles miracles (ALL OF THEM), were illustrating some spiritual truth to be incorporated into the Bible. That's the reason we have them recorded. Its not so that some individual today doesn't get arthritis, or someone can play the piano, or that some child wouldn't grow up crippled. That's the error of modern day err in thinking, not knowing the scriptures. That wasn't the divine purpose of Miracles. They were not for instruction for us on how to cure the physically sick, or lame, or the supernaturally Demon possessed. These miracles represented something infinitely more important than physical health or physical feeding of the hungry? The Gospel is not meat and drink, it's spiritual!

eg: when Christ healed the sick, it was a spiritual truth that He is the Spiritual physician, and our sin is the spiritual sickness that He came to heal. The truths are spiritual, not proof that we will do physical healing literally.

When Christ raised he dead, it was a spiritual picture that "He was the Resurrection" and the Life, and that whosoever believed on Him would be raised up "spiritually" from death, not proof we would raise any literal dead if we had enough faith.

When Christ cast out Devils, it was a spiritual picture that He is the one who would set us free from bondage to Satan, that we would have that old spirit cast out of us, making us a new man, a new creation, not proof we would literally cast out supernatural Demon beings.

When Christ fed the thousands with a few fishes, it was a spiritual picture that he is the one who would multiply the gospel that His seed shall become a multitude of nations. He is the Manna (bread) from heaven, one man from which a multitude of nations would be fed. Spiritually.

...and on and on in each and every miracle. God's not interested in your ability to play piano. That's not why He went to the cross and gave "gifts" unto men. Nor were these gifts He gave ability to accomplish supernatural feats of curing the dumb, lame or deaf. God takes "full responsibility" for creating these people. That is to say, If the Bible is our authority.

Exodus 4:11
  • "And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?"

So, clearly God made the lame, speechless, deaf, and the blind. It's not an accident that needs correcting by us through a miracle, it's by divine providence for a reason. That reason may not be clear to us, but the just shall live by faith.


Quote
>>>
So, If you think, for a moment, with all of your finite wisdom that you have that God does not perform miracles because of Revelation 22:18-19 or 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, Think again friend.
<<<

The wisdom I have could fit on the head of a pin. The wisdom is in God, not man. God instructs, not man. God is the Spirit revealing truth, not man. And certainly not I. Show me a man bathing in his own wisdom, knowledge, or understanding, and I'll show you an unbeliever.

I do not "think" God does not perform supernatural miracles because of His word, I "know" He doesn't. What you or I think is irrelevant to what God's word says. It's "What doesthe Bible say," that counts. Neither your or my thinking can make God's word null and void. Therefore, whosoever adds to God's revelation by feigning some divine revelation of ability to do supernatural miracles, has the plagues added unto him. For God's revelation is not an incomplete revelation, it is a book complete. There is no more Bible to be added because that book is finished. There is no "additional" word of God coming from the Mountain from God through you, me, or the Bible waving TV evangelist. God has said all He wanted for man and divinely inspired it recorded in the Bible. Then He sealed it shut. The next supernatural miracle we see will be God's return on the clouds of Glory, and the judgment at the last day.


Quote
>>>
..In the last days, My Bible teaches me that God will pour our His Spirit on all flesh, Acts 2:17-18.
<<<

Already been done. But of course, as a Premillennialist, you can't see the forest for the trees. Spiritual eyes are what you need. Not a miracle to cure glaucoma, but the gift of sight wherein we first see men as trees, and then understand the spiritual nature in the way God uses this symbolism to illustrate the deeper truth. Then and only then do we know God. Then and only then will we see men walking as trees. Then and only then do we see "clearly" to understand those trees are "spiritually" men. That's the miracle that Christians need today. The true miracle of sight. Unfortunately, they shun the "true" miracle for the illusion of temporal glory in false visions, revelations, signs and wonders. They still see the trees of Revelation that are burnt up, as literal trees. ..because they are not Spiritually versed  to see the whole picture, clearly! Consider wisely God's illustration of this spiritual eyesight.

Mark 8:23-25
  • "And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
  • And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
  • After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly."

Now, we see through a glass darkly, pray God will reveal to us more clearly the true miracles in view.


Quote
>>>
What days do you think we are in now, Mr. Tony? 

God Bless You! 
<<<

We are in the latter times of, "The last days." The days of delusion and deception and of all lying signs and wonders (2nd Thessalonians 2:9). Not a day of clarity, but a day of confusion and darkness. Not a day of mass illumination, but a day of strong delusion, of signs and lying wonders. A day when men will have a form of Godliness, but deny the power thereof. ..The SPIRIT is the power of Godliness. So without it, men will never surrender to "authority" of scripture, and will only have this form or outward fashion of Godliness. But what day do you think we are in?

2nd Timothy 3:1-5
  • "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
  • For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
  • Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
  • Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
  • Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

From such, we are instructed to turn away. If we love God more than pleasures, then we will get about the business of "Feeding His Sheep," rather than playing miracle worker and feigning healings and babbling tongues.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Diane Moody

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
  • Gender: Female
  • The Kingdom is Within You
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2004, 05:35:36 AM »
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do that the father may be glorified in the son

This couldn't be talking about miracles because Jesus walked on water, Raised the dead, stilled storms etc. There is nobody doing miracles now like this,

I really don't understand how more people don't pick up on this. How are they using this verse to prove miracles? To me, it seems to prove the exact opposite. Never in the history of man do we ever see, nor have ever heard of anyone doing greater miracles than Christ. No one turned water to wine, walked on water, fed five thousand, raised the dead, created the world.

Another thing is that it says works, not miracles. That seems to be conveniently overlooked.

 Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Our work is to spread the gospel.

Diane Moody

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
  • Gender: Female
  • The Kingdom is Within You
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2004, 05:52:54 AM »
It seems from my reading these articles over the last few that many of you believe that there are no more miracles happening today. It is my understanding that you think that divine revelation to believers is over. I am interested in knowing why you think that.


I think that because God teaches that miracles ceased when their purpose was accomplished. They were used to bring us the revelation of the Bible. Do not be misled by unusual occurrences and recoveries that pass as miracles, or by fake healers or people who claim to have done great miracles.

True miracles were done and written so that God's people could believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and believing, we might have life in His name.

 John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Quote
Could you provide scripture reference and tell me what about these passages. I have yet to read where these are addressed.

 John 14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

See my last message in this thread, and also tony's message. Do you know anyone who can raise a man from the dead after his body has begun to decay and rot so badly that it stinks? Then no one has done greater miracles than Christ.

Quote
Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

See this bible study on the subject:

http://mountainretreatorg.net/bible/mark16.html

These signs shall follow them that believe.

Quote
Ac 6:8  And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Ac 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:


No one says that Jesus and the Apostles didn't do miracles. That is not proof that we can do them today.

 

Apostolic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2004, 01:37:51 PM »
Tony,
  You don't know that there are no miracles today. How could you? There are many healing services around this nation every year where thousands are witness to miracles and healings. I saw a man go on stage with one leg shorter than the other, and left with a perfectly good leg. How do you explain that?

If you don't see miracles, it's because you have no faith. If you can't do a miracle, it's because you don't have faith. But don't say those who do have faith cannot do miracles, because you blasphemy.

 Rev. 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Don't deny his faith. And show a little love towards us instead of blasphemy. Don't try to beat people to death with scripture, the spirit says what's true about miracles in what we see with our own eyes.


iGreg

  • Guest
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2004, 02:22:41 PM »
Tony,
  You don't know that there are no miracles today. How could you? There are many healing services around this nation every year where thousands are witness to miracles and healings. I saw a man go on stage with one leg shorter than the other, and left with a perfectly good leg. How do you explain that?


You gotta be kidding? When a magician makes an Elephant "disappear" do you think that Elephant is actually vanishing?

Actually in a real sense many miracles are occurring today, however, you have to understand what those literal miracles in the Bible are pre-cursing for today. In real a sense believers do cast out demons today. When a believer brings the gospel to a non-believer, and if that non-believer is one of God's Elect, he can become born-again. Therefore he is no longer under the sway of Satan. So the demon has been cast out. Also, I do think it is possible for an actual demon to posses a non-believer today, & if that possessed person becomes born-again that demon is literally cast out.

The miracle of surviving a snake bite or drinking poison can occur as well, however, one must know what the Bible is symbolically representing with those literal miracles it portrays. The snake often represents Satan in the Bible (I think it can also represent God's Judgment on non-believers). Someone born-again can not come under the sway of satan anymore (the snake, aka Satan, will not harm us). Likewise poison, can be compared to the lies of Satan (or anything contrary to God), just like water is often representative of the gospel and healthy to consume, poison or anything antichrist is unhealthy & yet will not harm the believer.

Remember, the whole Bible is one cohesive word. Something you read in it is not always easy to discern.

Luke 24:45 says:
"Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

One must be careful when trying to understand the scriptures.

MightyMike

  • Guest
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2004, 08:00:03 PM »
<<<Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do that the father may be glorified in the son>>>

Quote
Diane-->This couldn't be talking about miracles because Jesus walked on water, Raised the dead, stilled storms etc. There is nobody doing miracles now like this,

I really don't understand how more people don't pick up on this. How are they using this verse to prove miracles? To me, it seems to prove the exact opposite. Never in the history of man do we ever see, nor have ever heard of anyone doing greater miracles than Christ. No one turned water to wine, walked on water, fed five thousand, raised the dead, created the world.

Another thing is that it says works, not miracles. That seems to be conveniently overlooked.

 Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Our work is to spread the gospel.

Howdy Diane!

Well, What were the works that Jesus did, Diane?  He raised the dead, opened the blind eye to see, healed the sick, and He healed all manner of diseases.  These are the works that Jesus did.

In John 14:12, Jesus specifically says that "He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

I believe that with all of my heart.  Do you believe what Jesus says here?  If not, Please state so.

The last time I checked, Jesus Christ is still in Heaven with His father, Matthew 26:64.  Which means that Jesus has not left Heaven yet, and we, as Christian believers, can do greater works than what Jesus Christ did because Jesus said so.

Now, Have you ever heard of Smith Wigglesworth?  He was a very strong believer in God.  During his ministry, This man raised 21 people from the dead.   How did He raise 21 people from the dead?  Because this man understood and lived the Gifts of the Holy Spirit that God gave to him.  He prayed at least 2 hours as day in tongues.      

Do you see, Diane?  When you diligently study and understand the Mystery that was revealed to Paul by God, that was kept secret from since the World began, Romans 16:25-26, You will begin to understand the Power of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit!

God Bless You! :)

iGreg

  • Guest
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2004, 08:15:57 PM »
Hey Mighty Mike, be sure to post here an announcement when & where you plan to walk on water, turn loaves of bread into fish & raise the dead. I guarantee you will have a pretty big audience to witness you do what Jesus did :P

P.S. God bless you too ;D

MightyMike

  • Guest
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2004, 08:59:53 PM »
>>>MightyMike-->Howdy Tony!

You got all of this diatribe of yours out of my comments above?
<<<

Quote
Tony-->I got out of your comments, only what you've been writing and implying. Somehow you've got the impression that God works supernatural miracles through Christians, and I'm sorry to say that this is a very popular false teaching "plaguing" the Church today. There are no supernatural revelations by God today, because God finished "The Book" and cursed anyone who would add to it by divine revelation.

Howdy Tony!

Is that what you think?  That When God works through a Born Again Christian, that somehow Divine Revelation is involved?  Well, First of all, Tony, What is a miracle?  For me, my own personal definition, is simply this.  A miracle is something that God does, such as healing for an example here, to an individual that modern medicine or any physician could not do, fix, or cure.  That is what a miracle is.

Now, If someone is healed by God from incurable brain cancer, for an example, I can assure you that Divine Revelation from God, outside the Bible, is not involved here.  What I can tell is that God's Holy Word IS INVOLVED.  Why?  Because the Bible teaches that by His stripes we are healed, 1 Peter 2:24.  This is Divine Revelation INSIDE the Word of God.  And, This Divine Revelation, INSIDE THE BIBLE, is God's Will for us to be healed.      

Quote
Tony-->When one claims to have had God do a divine supernatural miracle through them, they have added a new revelation from God, and are thus under the curse of the plagues. Any new revelation today is an "additional" Word from God "apart from the Bible," and that is a violation of God's Word. Anyone claiming to speak in unknown tongues has added to God's Word, by "alleging" that God spoke to them. And anyone claiming to supernaturally heal is claiming that God brought a new revelation of salvation demonstrated in that miracle. i.e., any miracle is a new revelation direct from God!

No, Tony, That is not the case.  You are showing me that you do not understand the Mystery that was revealed to Paul by God, Romans 16:25-26.  Within the scope of this Mystery lies the 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit.  These 9 Gifts are within the Divine Revelation of God which is INSIDE the Bible and not outside of the Bible.  This means then that, within the scope of the Mystery that was revealed to Paul by God, These Gifts of the Holy Spirit can be used by any Born Again Christian, the Gifts that God gives them, to witness and to spread the Wonderful Salvation message of the Gospel of Grace.

Now, In regards to your comments about speaking in tongues.  Paul specifically states that He spoke in tongues more than everyone during his day.  But, First, Take a look at how God set up the Christian Church as follows...

1 Corinthians 12:27-28

27.  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28.  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


This is still the setup of the Christian Church by God today which is well within the Divine Revelation of God according to the Mystery that was revealed to Paul, Romans 16:25-26.  In other words, Tony, None of these elements of God's setup are outside His Divine Revelation in Scripture.  Now, Back to Paul.  He spoke more in tongues than anyone else of his day, 1 Corinthians 14:18.

Tony, You said quote "Anyone claiming to speak in unknown tongues has added to God's Word, by "alleging" that God spoke to them."EOQ  This is simply not True!  I am very ashamed of you for saying such a thing.  Do you understand what the unknown tongue is for?  Apparently, You do not know or understand because you DO NOT understand the Mystery.  Well, maybe, I can shed some light on this subject for you.  

The unknown tongue is not a language to audibly parade around with in public.  The unknown tongue is not meant for other people to hear.  The unknown tongue is a language known only by God and totally unknown by the person speaking in this language, but God understands perfectly.  Paul specifically states that the person who speaks in an unknown tongue, speaks not unto men, but unto God, 1 Corinthians 14:2.  

The unknown tongue is never spoken in Church either.  Which leads to this question, When and where is the unknown tongue spoken to God?  The answer is Simple, Tony!  Only in private prayer.  The unknown tongue should be self explanatory simply by the name of the language.  Unknown.  Therefore, This language is not the same language found in 1 Corinthians 12 in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

My prayer for you, Mr. Tony, is that this explanation will help you further your studies in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in Scripture and their application to spreading the Gospel saving message of Salvation in Jesus Christ.

God Bless You! :)

MightyMike

  • Guest
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2004, 11:52:30 PM »
Quote
MightyMike-->These Gifts of God are very precious and are freely given and divided severally to every man as God chooses, 2 Corinthians 12:11.

Quote
Tony-->That there are gifts of God divided severally to every man according as God wills, I do not deny. That there are supernatural abilities I do deny.

Howdy Tony!

Your statement above is very intriguing to say the least.  I get the impression from you that if a believer in Christ has one of the 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit, that you deny the power of Christ that they have.  Is my understanding correct?  Well, What do you say about this in Scripture as follows...

Acts 3

1.  Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.
2.  And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
3.  Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.
4.  And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
5.  And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
6.  Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7.  And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ancle bones received strength.
8.  And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.


Now, upon reading this passage from the Book of Acts, You and I, Mr. Tony, know that Peter and John did not have the abilities to heal anyone by their ownselves.  Just like I cannot heal brain cancer of my own abilities.  However, Taking into account the words of Jesus in John 14:12, and the fact that Jesus Christ had already ascended to the Father in Heaven, That Peter and John did exactly what Jesus said they could do in John 14:12.  Acts Chapter 3:1-8 is Biblical proof.  The question is how?  They had the Power of the Holy Spirit living within them and the Holy Spirit was the Person, working through Peter and John, that the Gift of Healing was applied to the lame man in a very Glorious manner.  

Oh the mystery that was revealed to Paul by God.  IF The Christian Church would only realize the Power that indwells them, 1 Corinthians 3:16.  Wouldn't you agree, Mr. Tony?      
 

Quote
Tony-->the thing is, if the false prophet knew he was deceived, he wouldn't be teaching and believing the things that he does. He doesn't know he is under delusion. The false prophet is unaware, thinking he does God service when in fact he is under God's wrath. And unless he/she changes their ways, they shall discover too late that God is not mocked. Their deceit is not hidden from God, even though the devil has hidden it from them. Their "so-called" miracles will be as useless to them as they stand before God, as a bag full of wood and stubble would be.

Matthew 12:39
  • "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"

Many people do not know that they are deceived or have been deceived because they do not have the Word of the Living God in them.  However, When the Holy Spirit gets in you, Satan has no power over you!  For The Bible teaches that Greater is He that is within you, Than he that is in the world, 1 John 4:4.  All you have to do is believe.  Jesus said, All you need is the faith of a mustard seed, and you can move mighty mountains, Matthew 17:20.

God Bless You! :)  

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2085
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2004, 05:16:26 AM »
>>>
we, as Christian believers, can do greater works than what Jesus Christ did because Jesus said so.

Now, Have you ever heard of Smith Wigglesworth?  He was a very strong believer in God.  During his ministry, This man raised 21 people from the dead.   How did He raise 21 people from the dead?  Because this man understood and lived the Gifts of the Holy Spirit that God gave to him.  He prayed at least 2 hours as day in tongues.     
<<<

Smith Wigglesworth raised 21 people from the dead? LOL

Well I've heard some doozies, but this one takes the cake. Do you believe everything you hear? I heard some say that Martians built the Pyramids, do you believe that story also?

Proverbs 26:5
  • "Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit."

It's quite obvious to me that there is no talking rationally with you, so it's time to end this conversation. You've gone from nonsense to irrational foolishness. And I have better things to do than listen to fables about 21 dead people being raised up by Mr. Wiggle-guy.  ::)

Psalms 75:4-5
  • "I said unto the fools, Deal not foolishly: and to the wicked, Lift not up the horn:
  • Lift not up your horn on high: speak not with a stiff neck."

If you choose to be blind in your knowledge, and believe wild and unsubstantiated foolish declarations, what can I say? If you want to believe someone raised 20 corpses to life, walked on water, can drink radioactive waste or even made a man from clay, then you are certainly free to do so. But, to your own peril. I shall not be discussing this foolishness with you again. Because there is a point where discussion is futile, pointless and ridiculous. I think we've reached that point.

Proverbs 15:2
  • "The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness."

Meaning, what knowledge that you spout forth, is not knowledge at all. In this context, answer not a fool according to his foolisihness lest thou be like him. ...which means, there is a time for everything. A time to speak, and a time to shut up. And it's time to stop the nonsense.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Mike Repass

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2004, 10:24:13 AM »
Quote:
MightyMike
Reply #18 on: April 06, 2004, 06:59:53 PM
Now, If someone is healed by God from incurable brain cancer, for an example, I can assure you that Divine Revelation from God, outside the Bible, is not involved here.  What I can tell is that God's Holy Word IS INVOLVED.  Why?  Because the Bible teaches that by His stripes we are healed, 1 Peter 2:24.  This is Divine Revelation INSIDE the Word of God.  And, This Divine Revelation, INSIDE THE BIBLE, is God's Will for us to be healed.    


The only two places in scripture (using KJV) that the phrase shows up are printed below.

Isaiah 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


In looking at this phrase, which is the most qouted of all who claim to heal the sick, we see a prophecy and a definition of the prophecy. In the Gospels we see the fulfillment of the prophecy.

So in looking at the definition we find that the phrase by whose stripes ye were healed or with his stripes we are healed refers only to being healed of sin. Nothing more and nothing less. Those who use this phrase other than the way scripture defines it do so in error.

 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]