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Author Topic: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?  (Read 46360 times)

Frank Mortimer

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Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #165 on: August 13, 2016, 01:22:04 PM »
So many people these days defer to what men say and hold views based upon that, and this is the bane of sound interpretation.

 &TY  I see this again and again. In every thread, this "truth" is ignored as time after time after time, Christians bring up traditions, authors or what other church men said as a counter to a scripture. Almost every time. How is deferring to what men said sound interpretation? I agree with you one hundred percent.

Tony Warren

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Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #166 on: September 25, 2016, 06:28:24 AM »
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Tony, Obviously you don't pay any attention to what I say,
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Not when it contradicts what the Bible teaches. Nor should you pay attention to what I say if it contradicts God's word. The words of men are just that, the words of God are the only words that are 100 percent trustworthy and authoritative. Again:

Romans 3:4
  • "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

You will only be justified or correct in what you say and understand "only" as you do this--namely, place God's word above man's word unwaveringly. Never suppose that man's words or vain explanations, rationalizations and personal interpretations can trump God's unadulterated word. Let God's word be true is the first and foundational principle, even though that may mean that every theologian with any other opinion will be found to be false. This principle must not be broken. God's word is true, and all that oppose and deny His word are false.


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...so let me again quote one of your respected reformed theologians. He says,

"Miracles are events that violate natural law. It is important to remember that reformed theology teaches that the universe is constantly upheld not by natural laws, but by the providence of God." by Ra McLaughlin
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The universe is constantly upheld by "natural laws" which God designed and instituted specifically to uphold the universe. e.g.:

Genesis 1:14
  • "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"

In fact it is upheld by natural laws, for natural laws aren't man's laws, they were ws established by God at creation. In other words, God is NOT constantly (miraculously) spinning and holding the earth in place, He's long ago instituted what scientists call "natural laws" to do that. He's instituted the moon, measured the gravity, placed the sun, calculated the distance, heat and light, set the seasons, set the stars, planets, universe, etc. He doesn't have to constantly uphold it as He designed it to remain in place for as long as He wants it there. In other words, the planet rotates one complete turn approximately every 24 hours, the earth was placed 92.96 million miles from the sun, etc., etc. The earth isn't going to slip out of its orbit in any catastrophic way one second before God allows it to, He doesn't need to have constant maintenance because He created it to last as long as it is His will for it to last. People are always over-thinking things, and attempting to make things more complicated than they are. So then, contrary to Ra McLaughlin, the universe is constantly upheld by natural laws, but by the natural laws instituted by the designer God. None of this is germane or relevant to the existence of supernatural miracles by man continuing today.


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That's a respected reformed theologian speaking and I am obliged to agree with him.
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Psalms 119:4-6
  • "Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
  • O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
  • Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments."

There are all types of respect. You can be gratified by the words of men if you like--and of course, that's your prerogative. I have respect for the word, statutes and commandments of God that clearly illustrates that miracles were signs, tokens, a visual teaching tool for inclusion in scripture before the Bible was completed, and ultimately illustrating deeper spiritual truths. They were portraits of the many diverse aspects of Salvation. The raising of the dead, the resurrection unto spiritual life, casting out demons, the removal of the spirit of Satan from us, the multiplication of bread and fish, the feeding of the world with the gospel, etc., etc.  ...as I've already clearly demonstrated here with you before.


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God is till performing miracles today and he proves it simply by upholding the universe.
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That's like saying God proves the existence of supernatural miracles being done today by upholding the constant flow of a river, or because of the complexity of a whielwind or tornado. That's not proof anymore than the glorious phenomenon of a baby being born is proof, or a person recovering from a stage 4 cancer, or that a person falling from a 5 story building and surviving is proof of supernatural miracles. Indeed they are proofs of something, but not that God is still performing supernatural miracles that transcends His natural laws. As far as I can tell, you've not given one single proof or either a miracle being performed or that miracles were not as signs for the early church to be incorporated as scripture.


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The honorable Ra McLaughlin also goes on to say,

"We need to realize that throughout the history of the church, Christians have claimed to witness miracles, and that there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that all miracles have now ceased."
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Actually, we need to realize that throughout the history of the world, Charismatics, Wiccans, Mormons, Catholics, Atheists and Spiritualists have claimed to witness miracles. That is proof of nothing but the vain self-serving imaginations of men. To claim that there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that miracles have now ceased is to confess our ignominious ignorance of Scripture, of people and of God's actual purpose for miracles.

...or did you suppose that quoting Ra McLaughlin was proof superntural miracles continue? I'm don't doubt it might be for Calvinists, but not for me and my house.


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I agree with him, reformed theologians like yourself, or whatever you call yourself,
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Christian, but you can call me Tony ;)


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...need to distinguish between God's ordinary and extraordinary providence.
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We do. When have you seen anyone walk on water, raise someone from the dead who was dead so long he began to stink, send a pack of devils into a herd of swine, turned water into wine, turn a few fish into enough to feed 5000 people, etc.  So then, it is you that confuses God's ordinary or natural laws with His extraordinary providence or acts that violate His natural laws. Perhaps by not understanding the nature of man, of God or the Bible--or perhaps all three. The Pharisees also sought after signs, and et none was given them because it's not about the signs, but what they represent. They had "missed" the true signs that Christ's miracles represented, and thus they missed the boat. ...thus saith the preacher, there is nothing new under the sun.

Mark 8:11-12
  • "And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.
  • And He sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation."

What generation was that--it was the generation or family of evil. i.e., an evil and adulterous generation seeks after signs when the only sign given is the resurrection of Christ. Selah.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Apostolic

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Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #167 on: May 06, 2017, 07:18:10 AM »
Tony, what you have consistently failed to understand is that the only examples of followers of Jesus Christ that we find in the New Testament, are those who operated in power. So then should it not be difficult to comprehend that Jesus, who is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8 ), not only desires but also expects His disciples of today to operate in power also? When you deny the power, you blasphemy the holy spirit who works this power.

Tony Warren

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Re: Do Miracles Still Happen Today or Have Miracles Ceased?
« Reply #168 on: May 07, 2017, 05:44:26 AM »
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Tony, what you have consistently failed to understand is that the only examples of followers of Jesus Christ that we find in the New Testament, are those who operated in power.
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And you have consistently failed to understand is that the working of God's power comes in many different ways and was never relegated to His people practicing supernatural miracles. The fact is, the only examples of miracles in Scripture "Are Examples" pointing to the deeper spiritual meaning that God intended by them. That's a fact!  Raising the dead, the resurrection in Christ. Multiplying the bread to feed the multitude, the promulgation of the gospel from the true bread. Healing the insane or those out of their minds, the healing of mankind's "Spiritual Insanity" that there is soundness of mind in Christ Jesus. Healing the blind and deaf, the receiving of spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear in Christ Jesus. Casting out devils, the relief from bondage to Satan that he no longer is the spirit working within us. Taking up serpents and not being hurt, that the old serpent Satan has no more power to harm those baptized in the spirit, etc., etc. and on and on.

What it sounds to me like you are declaring is that all the Christians who didn't do physical miracles were not operating in power? That's not true. The unadulterated truth is, if they had the Spirit of Christ n them they were operating in power. That power was fully moving them and raising up those whom they witnessed to from death to life. Or do you suppose the testimony of the gospel is just words without sufficient power to accomplish God's purposes?

1st Thessalonians 1:5
  • "For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."

This refers not to the physical miracles and signs they did, but to the effect of the gospel on those who heard it by the Spirit of God working powerfully.
 
Acts 4:33
  • "And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all."

Do you suppose that this refers to an abundance of physical miracles? Not so, it refers to the efficacy or effectiveness in their (and our) preaching of the Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation.


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So then should it not be difficult to comprehend that Jesus, who is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8 ), not only desires but  When you deny the power, you blasphemy the holy spirit who works this power.
<<<

Christ indeed is the same yesterday, today and for ever (Hebrews 13:8 ), therefore no saint was ever defined by miraculous supernatural acts. Did Abraham, Isaac or Jacob do supernatural acts? Did Lot, Mary or John the Baptist? Were they denying the power by not operating in what (you assume) is evidence of power? I guess it all depends upon what you mean by power. You assume that means miracles, but I read direct from Scripture that it means the power of the Spirit in our witnessing so that it is not in vain.

Acts 1:8
  • "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

We have indeed "all" received the power of the Holy Spirit of God, it comforts us and moves us to testify of the gospel to the whole world, and because of that very real power it produces God's predetermined effect. Christ had rebuked them because the coming of the kingdom of God to them was "not" in earthly terms of palaces, rules, meat and drink, but in the "actual power:" of their witness to the ends of the earth. This is the "power" of true Christians, true witnesses of God. Not fables concerning miraculous healings in hospitals or churches, babbling tongues feigning messages from God or poison drinking and serpent handling. The real effectual miracle of salvation is that which ALL the literal miracles Christ and His apostles did Symbolized!


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also expects His disciples of today to operate in power also?
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Of course. And indeed they do. But not the fake power of frauds, charlatans and the vain and egotistical, but the true power of the Holy Spirit in them.

Ephesians 3:19-20
  • "And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
  • Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,"

You wouldn't think to "suppose" that this isn't power, would you? For God has not left us powerless, it's just not the power that you seek after in miracles, signs and wonders. It's the power of God in our humility and grace to know it's not about the love odf a show, but the show of love. It's about agape charity rather than carnal popularity.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 


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