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Author Topic: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism  (Read 23442 times)

Nikki

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The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« on: May 14, 2003, 03:29:22 PM »
I would like to know if you think that the true gospel is incompatible with dispensationalism, or if dispensationalism can be a part of the the true gospel.

I was having a discussion with someone who says it is not to be considered another gospel because they believe in Christ also. Since I respect some of your views, I would like to hear what conservatives think on this subject.

GoldRush

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2003, 10:17:39 PM »
Nikki asks:

I would like to know if you think that the true gospel is incompatible with dispensationalism, or if dispensationalism can be a part of the the true gospel.


We believe the true Gospel of Grace is incompatible with the false message preached by dispensationalists.

They say one must do a work ("accept Jesus Christ") in order to know God's redemption.  Dispensationalists believe that it is the "free" will of man that chooses to utilize the salvation provided by Jesus Christ.

In our opinion, they have no concept of God's grace, nor do they trust and rest in the Covenant promises of Sovereign God and His election of souls unto salvation.

In fact, they themselves teach that the O.T. Jews were saved under a different redemption plan (obedience to the Mosaic Law) than the N.T. saints who are saved by grace (only if that grace is "accepted")!

  Plus they teach that the (supposedly) future salvation of the nation of Israel during the (supposed) millennial reign of Christ on earth, will be the result of yet another, and brand new, gospel message preached in those days (consisting of salvation gained through remembrance of Christ's blood shed, by further animal sacrifices, etc. etc.)  

Bah . . .

Lots of people might say they  "believe in Jesus Christ", but God warns in His Word:

"Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed thier hearts far from Me . . ."  Isaiah 29:13a

Whatever Gospel is proclaimed, must accord with the entire Holy Scriptures. . .else it is not a true gospel or legitimate belief unto salvation at all.

J&R



GoldRush
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andreas

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2003, 03:10:37 AM »
andreas to Nikki,
Dispensationalists clear the board of all opinions but their own.Their major interest in prophecy has to do with the prophecies concerning national Israel.Church as far as they are concerned is a separate group,and they believe that there are two separate plans for the two groups.Classical Dispensationalism teaches that repentance belongs to the dispensation of law and not to the dispensation of Grace.
"If by grace then not of works ,otherwise grace is no more grace". Rom. 11:6.
andreas :)
kai ean diabainhs dió udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Pearson

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2003, 03:56:19 AM »
Nikki,
  No, dispensationalism is not the true gospel anymore than Judaism is the true gospel, because they both are man made doctrines which seek to please men. They both run on a system of man's works which cannot save, and cannot be the true gospel. It is another gospel and God warns against it.

 Rom. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 Gal. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 10  For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Dispensationalism is man's doctrine concentrating on physical Jews and the nation Israel and not God, and is very materialistic and worldly. The true gospel is of Christ and the grace of God who is no respecter of persons.

matt205

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2003, 11:57:12 AM »
Are you saying that dispensationalism is not Christian? I would need to know what criteria you use to make that judgement? Does that include Catholic Churches too?

Dutch

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2003, 02:03:04 PM »
Are you saying that dispensationalism is not Christian? I would need to know what criteria you use to make that judgement? Does that include Catholic Churches too?

It includes any Church which corrpts the gosopel of Christ. And dispensationalism  absolutely does that. A faithful doctrine of salvation is essential to the Christian religion.

Dispensationalism has departed from the only way of salvation which the Christian religion teaches, and so we must accept that it has departed from true Christianity. It doesn't matter that it says Christ is it's saviour, any heretical cult can say that too. No matter how many truths it supports, it cannot be called true christianity if it empties Christianity of its essential message of salvation. This doctrine of Dispensationalism  is America's largest growing cult, and no historic Christian religion supports it.

have you read John H. Gerstner, "Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism" (Brentwood TN: Wolgemuth & Hyatt, 1991), 150. J


David Knoles

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2003, 12:33:53 PM »
Let's stop with all the reformed Christians attempting to define dispensationalism. They never get it right. Here are the 8 basic tenets of our doctrine, which cannot be refuted by scripture.

1. The pretribulation rapture, as illustrated in scripture.
2. The permanent dichotomy between Jews and Gentiles.
3. The permanent dichotomy between Church and Kingdom.
4. The Kingdom of God as it were postponed until the second coming of Christ.
5. The NT Church unseen by OT prophets.
6. The future Great Tribulation period for the Jews.
7. The fulfilment of OT prophecy of a Jewish supremacy, a restored nation, temple, sacrifices, and priesthood.
8. A one thousand years earthly reign of Christ.

You will find they are all supported by the Bible.

judykanova

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2003, 01:26:07 PM »
David,

Why do you begin a new thread in a category that requires Scriptural support, and provide none?

Rule#1 of Guidelines:
Quote
The Biblical forums exists so that people can partake in serious bible based discussions, study the scriptures, ask questions, or engage in the civil debate of Christian doctrines from the scriptures. These are not forums simply to express opinions, but rather to discuss or defend them with Biblical references. If you simply want to discus Christianity in General without basis of scripture, Please use the Open Forum which has been established for that purpose

It seems to me that if you were really interested in getting at truth, you would honestly attempt to  address the many Scriptures already provided by others in similar pre-existing threads rather than starting a brand new one, seemingly just for the sake of promoting a doctrine that has more holes in it than swiss cheese. ;)

Why don't you start taking the time to study Scripture for yourself, instead of spreading false doctrine.

Rev 21:1-8
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Please note what this single passage alone teaches.... THIS is the Jerusalem of God -- not he middle East.  And THIS occurs at the end of time, when Chirst returns, when THIS earth is destroyed.

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

David Knoles

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2003, 03:26:49 PM »
Excuse me wannabe-moderator, but exactly which one of those 8 tenets did you refute by scripture? Or maybe you used invisible type? Articles can be presented for discussion purposes. That's in the rules also. And Premillennialism is different than dispensationalism. You mean you didn't know that?

Like I said, these tenets cannot be refuted by scripture. You just proved that.

judykanova

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2003, 05:40:19 PM »


David Knoles,

No one can do your thinking/studying for you; nor can I do anything about your willful ignorance and carelessness regarding God's Word.   So I won't waste any more of my time nor yours with posts to you on this subject

judy

'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Shirley

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2003, 07:11:00 AM »
Let's stop with all the reformed Christians attempting to define dispensationalism. They never get it right. Here are the 8 basic tenets of our doctrine, which cannot be refuted by scripture.

1. The pretribulation rapture, as illustrated in scripture.
2. The permanent dichotomy between Jews and Gentiles.



Well I'll take on this one. I don't know why so many Christian Churches even give these rapture theories the time of day when they are so clearly wrong. The rapture doesn't occur before the tribulation, the rapture occurs after the tribulation. These article gives the details.

http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/Not_So_Secret.html

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/when_is_the_rapture.shtml

And your belief in a permanent dichotomy between Jews and Gentiles is just totally wrong.

 Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Now that plainly tells the truth of this deception. We are all one body in Christ.  And my guess is that your other 6 points may be wrong also.





Robert63

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2003, 04:57:49 PM »
All that is true, but we have to be careful not to be puffed up and think that just because some christians are ignorant of the scriptures in some ways, they are not christian. Not knowing doctrine is not a reason to think someone is not saved.

Reformer

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2003, 03:14:40 AM »
All that is true, but we have to be careful not to be puffed up and think that just because some christians are ignorant of the scriptures in some ways, they are not christian. Not knowing doctrine is not a reason to think someone is not saved.


 Eze 3:7 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.

Hardhearted people were not God's chosen in the old testament, and neither are they in the new. People just have new names, and fresh excuses for their hardened hearts.

What you say would be perfect if these people really were in the dark. But what makes you think that either arminians, or dispensationalists are ignorant of the scriptures, or that they don't know about all these contrary passages? Every one that I have debated with, or spoken to on this subject quotes scripture liberally. Especially the arminians. They know scripture backwards and frontwards, and they go into great depth in these scripture trying to explain how being chosen doesn't really mean we are chosen. And John Walvord, the preeminent dispensational theologian was president of the dallas theological seminary. I don't think they believe that ignorance is bliss, or they are ignorant of the scriptures, I think they just don't like hearing the truth. They read the scriptures I gave, they just totally rejected them. That's not ignorance, that's being stubborn. So I think you give them way too much credit for just not knowing, or being blissfully ignorant. I think they know the scriptures a lot better than many of those who know of the sovereign grace of God. But they are wise in their own conceits, and are not blessed of God to accept his word.

Is that a harsh indictment? Yes. But these people are under judgement, and don't you think you encourage them by giving them hope that their gospel is true, and not the lies that it is?

 Jer 26:4 And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you,
 5 To hearken to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I sent unto you, both rising up early, and sending them, but ye have not hearkened;
 6 Then will I make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.

Robert63

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2003, 01:03:07 PM »
Reformer, when I made that particular statement, I was talking about people in those churches who have never even heard the gospel preached truly, but who have only heard what their teachers preach, and who blindly follow these false teachers. I have to tell you, some of the ones I talk to aren't even aware of the numerous scriptures which support the doctrines of grace, or TULIP. And besides from their teachers spin on Predestination, they don't even know of this doctrine. IIn most churches around the country, the true gospel of a completely Sovereign God is almost unheard of.

I would (with reservation) agree that someone who hears the gospel and rejects it has the burden upomn themselves. The true test is in how they react to the truth. If they hear it and reject it, of course that is not evidence that they are really christians.

 1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."

But many people, and some of them I think are right here, have come out of these churches after being approached with the true Gospel. and hearing the witness of what is true, and seeing that it is the only biblical doctrine. That's what I was saying. What do you think?

David Knoles

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Re: The Bible Versus Dispensationalism
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2003, 06:17:36 PM »


David Knoles,

No one can do your thinking/studying for you; nor can I do anything about your willful ignorance and carelessness regarding God's Word.   So I won't waste any more of my time nor yours with posts to you on this subject
judy


Judy. The Lord forgive you. I say you didn't supply any scripture and ask you for scripture supporting what you said, and you insult me and make yet another reply without scripture. If you cannot back what you say by God's word, just stop posting. No need to insult me by posting these juvenile retorts. I'm just looking for some proof, that's all.



 


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